[python-committers] Fw: CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)

[Antoine Pitrou]

Apparently it's this one:
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2018-September/053482.html

By the way, regardless of this single case, I would like people to think
of the broader issue we're having.  It's more than a single contentious
decision.

Regards

Antoine.


Le 20/09/2018 à 22:33, Alex Gaynor a écrit :
> Is there a copy of the original email? (I'm not a regular python-ideas
> reader)
> 
> Based on Brett's description though, the content sounds very far over
> the line, and I wouldn't want to interfere with the WG's decision.
> 
> Alex
> 
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 4:25 PM Antoine Pitrou <antoine at python.org
> <mailto:antoine at python.org>> wrote:
> 
> 
>     Hi,
> 
>     I'm choosing to forward this to python-committers because I don't think
>     python-ideas is a reasonable place to discuss CoC decisions.
> 
>     I think the action taken by Brett (apparently decided with Titus and a
>     mysterious "conduct working group") is not the right one:
> 
>     - a definitive ban is an extremely strong decision that should only be
>     taken if nothing else works.  May I remind that Anatoly was able to post
>     prolifically and unconstructively for several years, being warned
>     several times, before being finally banned?  Comparatively, this one ban
>     seems expeditive.
> 
>     - the reasons given, to me, don't make sense at all.  The word "n-----"
>     is not a forbidden word if you want to describe, precisely, linguistics
>     and the relativity of meanings (instead of actually *qualifying* someone
>     or a groupe of people), which is what the OP claimed to do.  The other
>     reasons look like a similar kind of over-reaction.  Even if something
>     there looks inappropriate to you, it's still enough of a grey area that
>     a ban is absolutely the wrong answer.
> 
>     I deduce that it's ok to say "slave" in a discussion instead of using an
>     expression such as "the s-word".  Why one term is allowed and the other,
>     not, may be clear to Americans (or, perhaps, a large fraction thereof),
>     but hey, it's not clear to other people around the world.  Banning a
>     (apparently) Dutch person because he doesn't understand American
>     standards of offense is not only unfair, but it makes our community
>     *not* inclusive of other cultures.
> 
>     As a French person myself, I could not, even if I wanted to, turn myself
>     into an authentic American: what is obvious to you is not obvious to me
>     and it would be extremely brutal and humiliating to ban me for having
>     the wrong nationality and the wrong culture.  I will ask: please
>     consider the work and effort that it *already* takes for other people to
>     adapt to standards of discussion that are, obviously, those of a
>     particular culture.  Otherwise you're raising barriers even more, not
>     lowering them.
> 
> 
>     At the end of it, it looks like we have a real moderation problem.
>     python-ideas threads frequently veer out into unconstructive
>     back-and-forths (and, well, that's not *only* the ethically-sensitive
>     threads).  The CoC is being applied erratically, sometimes
>     precipitately, by apparently overworked and emotionally exhausted
>     moderators, with bad consequences on the quality of the decisions.
> 
>     Moderators should not become emotionally exhausted (which means we need
>     a more adequate discussion system *and* a more collegial, spread out,
>     team of moderators); and, if they become so, I would humbly suggest it's
>     a better idea - even if not always easy to follow - to step back and
>     take some rest than make decisions in such a state.  We also need real
>     guidelines to the moderators as to which decision on the scale of
>     possible decisions to apply, depending on severity of the offense /
>     violation and on the "offendor"'s past behaviour.
> 
>     In the end, I hope we can set ourselves better moderation standards.  As
>     for me, I find the current situation very worrying, including for my
>     ability to contribute constructively to Python.  If I have to fear
>     banning for every word that I say and that might be deemed inappropriate
>     in the moderators' culture, I might just as well leave instead of
>     feeling stressed and anguished everytime I post something.  I would not
>     want to live this in paid work: why would I endure it as a volunteer,
>     while my main gratification should be the pleasure taken in
>     contributing?
> 
>     Regards
> 
>     Antoine.
> 
> 
> 
>     ----- Message Transféré -----
> 
>     Date : Thu, 20 Sep 2018 11:56:05 -0700
>     De : Brett Cannon <brett-+ZN9ApsXKcEdnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org
>     <mailto:brett-%2BZN9ApsXKcEdnm%2ByROfE0A at public.gmane.org>>
>     À : Jacco van Dorp
>     <j.van.dorp-i74+SDIRvn1mR6Xm/wNWPw at public.gmane.org
>     <mailto:wNWPw at public.gmane.org>>
>     Cc : python-ideas
>     <python-ideas-+ZN9ApsXKcEdnm+yROfE0A at public.gmane.org
>     <mailto:python-ideas-%2BZN9ApsXKcEdnm%2ByROfE0A at public.gmane.org>>
>     Groupe de discussion : gmane.comp.python.ideas
>     Sujet : CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better
>     than ugly" Zen clause)
> 
> 
>     The below email was reported to the PSF board for code of conduct
>     violations and then passed on to the conduct working group to decide on
>     an appropriate response.
> 
>     Based on the WG's recommendation and after discussing it with Titus, the
>     decision has been made to ban Jacco from python-ideas. Trivializing
>     assault, using the n-word, and making inappropriate comments about
>     someone's mental stability are all uncalled for and entirely
>     unnecessary to carry on a reasonable discourse of conversation that
>     remains welcoming to others.
>     _______________________________________________
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>     python-committers at python.org <mailto:python-committers at python.org>
>     https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>     Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing.